Curse

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 16, 2007, 04:35 AM // 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

You are just mad you get kd'd every time you get hit with this skill. This skill was not broken compare it to Death Blossom if people were looking for damage rather then a kd skill that required more then pressing 1 then following it up with something. So yeah you = /fail at imba in skills go play assassin more then come back kthxbai nub...

Actually, I have a decent concept of what game balance is. I've said it many times if you would take the time to read. The knockdown is imbalanced because you can get your entire combo off before they have a chance to stand up.

Perhaps you should spend more time on your assassin if you are having a hard time activating the condition on that skill. The mousewheel will zoom your camera out so you can see who your opponent is standing next to. That may help some.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

...compare it to Death Blossom if people were looking for damage rather then a kd skill that required more then pressing 1 then following it up with something...

Also, it looks like you are supporting my arguement by saying HotO is meant as a KD, wheras Death Blossom is better suited for higher damage? Is this correct?

Bobby2 · Nov 16, 2007, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

Actually they are correct.

I mean that the skill was too overpowered before the nerf. It was overpowered because it was used mostly (from my own experience) in Shadow Prison builds, which means you could teleport onto a foe who was nowhere near anyone else, and they couldn't move into range within time (66% slow), so the knockdown always worked.

Before the nerf, HotO had:
1. Good Damage
2. Easy to meet KD condition
3. Knockdown during instagib combo

Now the skill has:
1. Easy to meet KD condition
2. Knockdown during instagib combo

A bit more fair, imho. If you wan't your knockdown, now you have to sacrifice a bit of damage to get it. It's only fair.

I also stated that the damage could be a bit higher than they mentioned, but it still needed to be knocked a bit.

If you expect to have your HotO reverted, ask the Devs to hit tigerstance instead. This will make it so that you cannot activate your entire combo while your foe is defensless on the floor.

Also, I am only monk secondary for a nice Hardres (if I even need one), silly. I run curses. :]

So ANet burn Tiger Stance then. HotO makes a lot of other builds viable besides the SP gimmick so that's why I feel it's a failed nerf. Besides, with BLS being hit as well I doubt the viability of many SP builds anyway.

As for Curses... we think alike. I used it for Rend Enchantments up until now but post-nerf also for Rigor Mortis.

SERIOUSLY! If it wasn't for the teleporting W/N would do a better job at spiking nowadays

MercenaryK · Nov 16, 2007, 04:51 AM // 04:51

I'm just taking a wiiiiiiiiiild stab at this, but there are other ways besides SP to get to your opponent, and if Mobeious Strike was taken as your Elite, HoTO could be chained over and over in a KD chain. Could that be why HoTO had it's damaged lowered? With lower damage even for a dual attack the opponent has a higher chance (than before) to get out of the chain (as Mobeious <50%)

And why not take Flurry over Tiger Stance? Flurry has the faster recharge, same energy cost. The 25% less damage isn't even much for max damage daggers.

Sqube · Nov 16, 2007, 06:18 AM // 06:18

Splitisoda: Dude(tte)... 5 seconds of 33% IAS is enough to kill a person. More importantly, if you can acquire that without putting any points into an attribute, it will be used by sins to spike. That spike will screw with the meta. Like I said somewhere (all these discussions are making me misplace my previous comments), all the IAS skills need to be reworked so that they don't last long enough at 0 in a given attribute to run a full spike.

Bowstring Badass: Fair enough.

MercenaryK: There are other ways besides SP to get to your opponent, but a hex (giving you access to the black line), a 20 second recharge and a 66% snare meant that it was the best option. Also, the HotO chain is hardly new, so I don't think that's why it got the axe. I think the bonus damage, combined with preventing your opponent to react, is what got it brought down.

High-end PvP is all about maximizing everything you do. Using Flurry... just doesn't. Even though 25% of your base damage isn't that much, it's that much less damage than you would have ordinarily done.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 16, 2007, 06:22 AM // 06:22

In fact, it's 25% less damage you're doing. :]

Excluding certain +damage skills here and there.

Bowstring Badass · Nov 16, 2007, 12:22 PM // 12:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

In fact, it's 25% less damage you're doing. :]

Excluding certain +damage skills here and there.

The skill is not meant as a kd really it is to unreliable so quit twisting my words

.

Bobby2 · Nov 16, 2007, 02:12 PM // 14:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaida the Heartless

In fact, it's 25% less damage you're doing. :]

Excluding certain +damage skills here and there.

We've been over this before. This 'here and there' you're referring to should read 'every dagger attack known to man'.

Jaigoda · Nov 16, 2007, 04:35 PM // 16:35

No, its actually 'every attack skill known to man.'

wsmcasey · Nov 16, 2007, 05:19 PM // 17:19

25% of a possible 17 is better than say 25% of max sword, axe, hammer or scythe. Flurry isn't a bad option since a sin is spiking a single target. If its only 25% of base damage lost. Thats a possible 3.4 damage loss if you get lucky to hit with the highest attack of 17 base damage. If your unlucky and get with the minimum base damage of 7, then you only lose 1.4. That equates to a damage lose ranging from 5.6 - 13.6 over a 4 chain attack. Thats not much of a loss on a single target.

Kaida the Heartless · Nov 16, 2007, 05:21 PM // 17:21

http://gw.gamewikis.org/wiki/Flurry

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guildwiki

Flurry only reduces base attack damage, not skill bonus damage.

That is what I was referring too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bowstring Badass

The skill is not meant as a kd really it is to unreliable so quit twisting my words.

Horns of the Ox isn't meant as a knockdown?!

Sqube · Nov 16, 2007, 10:05 PM // 22:05

wsmcasey: It. Is. Still. A. Loss. If you've never been in a situation where 14 health was the difference between living and dying, you haven't played enough.

Hell, in PvE there are a fair amount of times where I've survived with 8 health. You simply don't purposefully cause less damage unless there's no other alternative.

Bowstring Badass: As far as HotO's concerned... I'm gonna have to go with Kaida and say lolwut?

ensoriki · Nov 16, 2007, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sqube

wsmcasey: It. Is. Still. A. Loss. If you've never been in a situation where 14 health was the difference between living and dying, you haven't played enough.

Hell, in PvE there are a fair amount of times where I've survived with 8 health. You simply don't purposefully cause less damage unless there's no other alternative.

Bowstring Badass: As far as HotO's concerned... I'm gonna have to go with Kaida and say lolwut?

>.> Indeed!

a simple extra 8 damage can mean Life or Death!

MercenaryK · Nov 17, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

I see now why Tiger Stance > Flurry. If you're going all out to cause damage, why would you begin to pinch pennies?

Sqube · Nov 17, 2007, 01:57 AM // 01:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercenaryK

I see now why Tiger Stance > Flurry. If you're going all out to cause damage, why would you begin to pinch pennies?

Exactly. And that's why I maintain that, if ANet is insistent on killing the SP sin (and it sure as hell looks like they are), then they need to change every IAS skill that allows you to have 4-5 seconds of IAS with no points invested in an attribute and no negative side-effects (recharge times don't count since you're limited by SP's recharge no matter what).

That, in my opinion, is the only way to stop it. Everything else just means people will start substituting different skills until you neuter all the dagger attacks to the point that you start negatively impacting PvE players.

X Cytherea X · Nov 17, 2007, 02:10 AM // 02:10

Agreed. ANet should revert every skill on the SP bar to its state at Nightfall release, and instead nerf all IAS so you get 1 duration if you have 0 attribute investment.

none of them were imbalanced at any point EXCEPT when coupled with an IAS.

in detail:
SP: 5e 1/4c 20r
ED: 10e 1c 10r
BLS: offhand that requires hex, gives 18e at 13cs
Hoto: 30ish damage
BSS: 5e, 30ish damage

ahhh those were the days ;_;

and put trampling ox back to its gw:en release state too

LifesRestorer · Nov 17, 2007, 02:48 AM // 02:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by X Cytherea X

Agreed. ANet should revert every skill on the SP bar to its state at Nightfall release, and instead nerf all IAS so you get 1 duration if you have 0 attribute investment.

none of them were imbalanced at any point EXCEPT when coupled with an IAS.

in detail:
SP: 5e 1/4c 20r
ED: 10e 1c 10r
BLS: offhand that requires hex, gives 18e at 13cs
Hoto: 30ish damage
BSS: 5e, 30ish damage

ahhh those were the days ;_;

and put trampling ox back to its gw:en release state too

you make me lol. while we're at it lets put gale back to 5e, bring back avatar of grenth but it was too weak before so make it stronger and oh yeah just make wearying strike description 'target foe dies'

X Cytherea X · Nov 17, 2007, 04:59 AM // 04:59

^good ideas

oh yea i forgot, SP had a minimum 4 duration and BoS had an 80 damage cap for awhile

Sqube · Nov 17, 2007, 05:21 AM // 05:21

X Cytherea X: I don't think every skill needs to be reverted; now that the cat's out of the bag on SP sins, you can't make people forget that knowledge. It just so happens that I agree with you on Expose Defenses, but that's another story entirely. What ANet did to that skill was tragic, plain and simple. It was a full extra second on whatever you were planning to do. That meant people knew you were coming, you could call it, alert monks, etc.

9 sec @ 12 DA? 25 sec recharge? That's a travesty. I'd rather bring Mending with no points invested.

Bobby2 · Nov 17, 2007, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bobby2

As for Curses... we think alike. I used it for Rend Enchantments up until now but post-nerf also for Rigor Mortis

CURSES! CURSES!

fireflyry · Nov 17, 2007, 09:52 AM // 09:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sqube

Everything else just means people will start substituting different skills until you neuter all the dagger attacks to the point that you start negatively impacting PvE players.

My thoughts exactly.